In the Cut Leadership Conversation with Venu Gupta

Committed to fostering solidarity and political engagement among people of color across backgrounds and identities, Venu’s work spans many sectors including law, business, media, education and nonprofit. A compassionate, human-centered leader, Venu works with individuals and clients to explore and promote anti-racism and racial justice practices. Sheila and Venu discussed Venu’s leadership style and her aspirations to transition into ministry. They also explored the concept of inspiration, the importance of decision-making and the impact of personal values on leadership.

Venu, welcome to In the Cut!

We start this conversation with the question, how do you identify? It has something to do with how we live all of our lives.

As I’ve gotten older, how I identify… right now because I recently lost my Mom, I’m very much in my daughter identification both to my Mom and my Dad, with whom I’m very close.

In terms of the way the outside world sees me, I identify as a South Asian American, cisgender woman. I also identify as somebody with tremendous economic privilege, which has allowed me a lot of freedom and confidence, but it also comes with a lot of egoism.

Sheila: I don’t know you to have egoism. Where I see the result of what you just described as economic privilege, is that your heart recognizes what that is and the responsibility of it.

I identify as a Mom. A sister. I identify very strongly with family which is the primary driver of all my decisions. Finally, I will say I identify myself as a seeker.

Sheila: I concur. I remember interviewing you and you asked me harder questions than I asked you.

“Leadership is much more about taking care versus taking charge.”

 What’s the work you do that makes you the happiest?

I do a lot, and what I think of as work and what I get paid for are sometimes different! I love bringing people together in every kind of way. I love creating places where people can unburden themselves because I can hold a lot, of course, until I can’t.

I love creating spaces where people leave feeling lighter.

What called you to be that person? How or when did you know you were that person?

I’m getting teary because I think I just recently, finally, allowed myself to know it. It happened just in the past month or so. After having strived for gold stars my entire life and failing miserably at many things, I now know that my highest purpose is to be a catalyst for people to gather themselves inwardly and outwardly.

Sheila: I think sometimes we don’t know what to call it. You just do the thing.  

“We can do better to treat each other as the divine beings we are.”

When did you first realize that you were a leader?

I have a question for you. What do you mean by leader?

Sheila: Well, I could ask you that question back because leadership means different things to folx. It could be the moment you recognized you had influence. It could be the moment you caused something to happen where other people said I’m going in that direction. Or, it could be the moment you self-anointed yourself as a leader.

Venu: I guess over the past couple of years, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. You and I have been in a number of rooms where we’ve passed through some sort of licensing mechanism where people say, “You’re a leader, you’re a leader. You’re in this group of leaders.” And, after the adrenaline of being chosen wears off, the leader title starts to feel a bit odd. Wouldn’t it be odd to say to a group of people at church, temple or mosque, “only the leaders among you are divine.”

So, I don’t think about it in that way anymore. Sometimes we exhibit leadership, and sometimes we don’t. All of us. I often take charge because I am wired that way. I don’t think that’s what it means to be a leader. I think leadership is much more about taking care. My best friend, Jen, recently said that to me. We think that leadership is about the person who makes the decisions and who has the brightest ideas. But leadership is about taking care.

If I look at it from that viewpoint, I did a lot of things where I was in charge and people were attracted to me because of my enthusiasm, but I wasn’t really a leader. In law school, I was the head of the Women of Color Collective, and that’s maybe where I showed leadership in the way I see it now. It was such a special group of women, and I felt very invested in their care.

Sheila: This goes back to your first answer where you said you gather and care for people. And if leadership is care, then by default, you’re a leader. There’s a direct correlation. And the other part of that is the willingness to make decisions. In the taking charge part has to be making decisions.

Totally, you’re right. It’s taking care and making decisions. You have to be really comfortable making decisions, even when there’s a lot of ambiguity.

Do you ever listen to The Diary of a CEO podcast with Steven Bartlett? It’s so good. He was interviewing this woman who used to be a Secret Service agent. She said that if you don’t move in a direction, even if it’s in the wrong direction, you’ll stay stuck. You have to be willing to move and take responsibility if it turns out to be the wrong direction. But you can’t let your fear of being wrong prevent you from moving.  From a disposition perspective, I’m okay making decisions and being wrong, in part because I have a safety net and, in part because, I’m a bit of an adrenaline junkie.

Sheila: In another interview I would ask you about the circumstances. If the circumstances were different and you didn’t have a safety net, would that make you do something different? You still have the native instinct of movement. 

Tell me about the Women of Color Collective. Was it inherited or did you start it?

It was inherited. My friend, Luz, suggested, very firmly, that I join. We held a conference each year where we brought together prominent women of color lawyers from across the country. It took place over 2 days, and we explored different topics. It was phenomenal looking back on it. The women in the core planning committee are still good friends today.

Sheila: Why did you say yes to that? You didn’t have a safety net.

Because it felt important. The care that I feel extends quite intensely to people whom I perceive as not having access to power in the same way other people have. I think we can do better to treat each other as the divine beings we are.

I am very sure that somewhere in the next 10 years I will move into some kind of ministry in the Zen Buddhist tradition. That’s my path. I have a lot of work to do but that’s where I want to be.

How does the person you described yourself to be inform how you lead, how you take charge, however you describe it?

At my best, I put a premium on people’s spirit which allows me to see how the ecosystem of a group is doing. To assess the system and figure out which parts needs care and which parts need motivation. Then I can ensure that we’re all moving in the same direction and people feel protected. There’s a virtuous cycle when people know that what they think matters to how an outcome is determined or designed. And when people see that the result of participation connects them to the outcome, often they are more motivated to figure out how to work together.

Sheila: You started that answer with “at its best”. Is there an “at its worst”.

At its worst, it makes me a bit of a bulldozer—we’ve got to get this done—instead of a leader. I can move too fast.

I am keenly aware that I, like many people on most days, am reacting, and on days I’m at my best, I’m choosing how to be. I hope to have more “at my best” days before I die.

“I was matching my talents with my feelings. I’m not sure it did anybody any good.”

Do you have a moment in leadership that was a real learning for you?

I was at a media nonprofit. I went to a board meeting within the first few weeks of being hired. The minute I stepped into the board meeting reception, I knew immediately it was not for me. At the time, I wasn’t yet brave enough to accept that knowledge. I thought, I can do this. I can galvanize people, Instead, I saw what I thought they were doing poorly and believed I could do better, and I got people riled up about it. But that wasn’t my job! I was supposed to be raising money.

I learned a lot. I think It’s important to lead on what’s right and there are ways to do it without blowing things up. If I was being strategic about why and how I was doing that, it would have been one thing. But I was matching my talents with my feelings. I’m not sure it did anybody any good.

Sheila: It was a bulldozer moment.

Yeah, I had built trust with people. It’s not that what we were doing was wrong, it just wasn’t strategic and it took me away from doing the job that I had to do. If I were my boss at that time, I would have told me to stay in my lane! Or, if you want to be outside your lane, at least mark your lane.

I’m curious with all you’ve talked about, what’s your leadership superpower?

My leadership superpower is inspiring people. In my little way, I am courageous and vulnerable. Because of that, I inspire people to know that they can be flawed and courageous, too.

What’s a quote, a song, a go-to thing when you’ve got to get into your leadership seat?

It’s a prayer -

Om bhuh, bhuvah, swaha

Tat savitur varenyam

Bhargo devasya dhimahi

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat

Which loosely translate to:

O Divine mother, may your pure divine light illuminate all realms

(physical, mental and spiritual) of our being. Please expel any darkness

from our hearts and bestow upon us true knowledge.

My grandmother recited this prayer to my father, from his birth to her death.  My Father has been reciting this prayer to me, since my birth. My husband and I have recited this prayer to our children, even before they were born.

Do you have a talent that you’re not using?

I don’t have these talents but there are 2 things that I think that I could have been really good at. The first is a gymnast. And I always wished I had tried being an actor.

Sheila: There’s still time to be an actor.

If this 5 years is a chapter in your life, what’s it about?

I think it’s about laying the foundation for the next 10 years. I could say it’s transition but it’s like tilling the soil.

Sheila: So, you’re a gardener right now.

Yeah, I’m a gardener. Planting, weeding, and watering. Thank you for that.

It’s a year from now, what are you celebrating?

A book. I’ve been thinking about writing a book. It’s about gathering and democracy. Sort of like the idea that well-being and democracy are connected.

Sheila: This time is asking a lot of us and it’s showing up in different kinds of ways.

Venu, I appreciate you and your time here In the Cut!

Learn more about Venu’s work at Solidarity Futures and please leave a message for her below.